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Award-wining journalist turned author Mandy Wiener greets me with a smile and a friendly hand shake. She's professional, friendly and incredibly passionate about Killing Kebble, her newly released book published by Pan Macmillan.
We sat down to chat to her about Killing Kebble.
Q: When did it become apparent that this story was not just about Brett Kebble?
A: You know, for a long time, people were trying to work out just what happened to Brett Kebble. For example, dinner table conversations would always revolve around it and the questions on everyone's lips would be: Who killed Kebble? Was it a hi-jacking? Was it an assassination or simply a diamond deal gone wrong?
Then Mail & Guardian started doing all their reports and started tying the stories together.
Of course, what followed was the news about this Papyrus drug bust and it was then that we started seeing Glenn Agliotti's face and name being mentioned everywhere. Eventually we started to realise that this was far, far deeper than what we originally thought. I think it was a year or two later that we only began to really realise to just how deeply this story went and now, I can't help but think with hindsight: how did we never know?
Q: When did you realise that you wanted to write a book?
I wanted to write a book for a very long time, but I don't think the timing was right for it. I wasn't ready at the time as I was still at a relatively early stage in my career. Then my colleague Adriaan Basson wrote his book and I thought to myself: is there room for another book?
And I came to the conclusion that yes, there was room because this was a completely different story that I wanted to tell. So I went to the publishers in August last year (this following encouragement from Jenny Crwys-Williams who wrote: "book, book, book" on my Facebook wall and calls from government spokespeople who wanted to know more about this book). It was at this point that i decided, "let's do this". It took me about 3 months to write. I started it in August and finished it on New Year's Eve after which it went to the publishers for editing.
Q: Were you inundated with opportunities to interview people who wanted to tell you their side of the story? And if so, how did you decide whose story to include and whose story to say no to?
You know, every time I interviewed someone they'd say to me: "Oh, you should speak to this person, or you should speak to that person." Or they'd give me a phone number and tell me to call this person.
There just came a point where I had to draw a line, otherwise I'd have been interviewing forever. Everyone's got a story to tell and this was and is quite an emotive issue. At the end of the day, I had a very specific idea of what I wanted for the book and ultimately that's what helped me to say no.
Q: It certainly must have taken a lot of trust-building in order to get the likes of Mikey Schultz, Nigel McGurk, Kappie Smith and Glenn Agliotti to sit down and relay their story to you. Do you feel as if they've told you everything that they possibly could have had to tell you?
You know, I think they were surprisingly candid. I think that they certainly told me more than I expected them to. Yet at the same time, I don't know if they told me the truth because it's very possible that in 5 years time they could all turn around and say, 'Well, we were actually using you.'
Which is why, in the book, I don't make a finding and I don't pass judgement and because I can't be sure whether I've been lied to or not. So, while they had to trust me, I had to trust them.
Q: One of the most wonderful aspects of the book is that the multifaceted tones and colloquial voices portrayed throughout it, add an authenticity that many South Africans, will be able to relate to. Did you consciously decide to use this as a format?
Yes. It was important for me to use Mikey's voice as that thread throughout the book and I wanted it to be verbatim because using his voice that way is a true reflection of the way that he lives, speaks and acts. I think that gives the best insight into his psyche.
Q: The characters in your book are also portrayed in a remarkably compelling light, allowing the reader almost to feel a certain sense of empathy toward them. Was it hard to portray them in this manner and still remain impartial?
You know, I wanted to deal with them on a deeper level. I feel that they've been dealt with on a very superficial level in the media and it's for that reason I wanted people to have that empathy. At the same time though, one can't forget what these guys have done. So you can't be too empathetic towards them because these guys have committed horrible crimes - and that's the reality of their situation that I wanted to portray.
It wasn't a challenge to remain impartial because they knew my agenda from the start. They knew I was going to be honest and transparent and they knew they were going to read things that they weren't going to like. At the same time though, I had a rapport with them that was quite unique.
Q: The ruling that the death was considered to be an assisted suicide - this effectively led to the killers being granted indemnity. Were there actual findings that supported the notion that the death was an assisted suicide?
No. Judge Frans Kgomo never made a finding about whether it was an assisted suicide or not. What he did do was he granted indemnity to the three of them; which means he felt that they were telling the truth when they testified.
Their truth was that it was an assisted suicide, so he implied that he believed their version. Also, Glenn Agliotti's defence was that it was an assisted suicide and he was acquitted .So while he never said that he believed it was an assisted suicide, he certainly implied it.
Q: What did you find were the most challenging aspects of writing the book?
You know, when you write for radio, you write very short. And you don't give your opinion. For this book, I had to expand on it and I had to put some of my own opinions in it as the publishers specifically wanted this. So that, for me, was the most difficult aspect of writing this book by far.
Q: What do you hope that people will get out of reading your book?
I think what the book does is show how business, politics and organised crime collided. And if anything, I want people to be aware of what's been happening right under our noses and to be cautious of this. Because, the fact of the matter is that we are seeing this again – Papyrus being another example.
And if anyone reads this book, I want them to walk away and think that we shouldn't allow this to happen again. We shouldn't be seeing people who should be convicted walk free nor should we be seeing the corruption amongst state officials and law enforcement. It just simply shouldn't be allowed.
Our Killing Kebble review will be up shortly. In the meantime, you can buy a copy of the book here.
Have you had a chance to read Killing Kebble yet? If not, why not? And if you have, what did you think of it?
We sat down to chat to her about Killing Kebble.
Q: When did it become apparent that this story was not just about Brett Kebble?
A: You know, for a long time, people were trying to work out just what happened to Brett Kebble. For example, dinner table conversations would always revolve around it and the questions on everyone's lips would be: Who killed Kebble? Was it a hi-jacking? Was it an assassination or simply a diamond deal gone wrong?
Then Mail & Guardian started doing all their reports and started tying the stories together.
Of course, what followed was the news about this Papyrus drug bust and it was then that we started seeing Glenn Agliotti's face and name being mentioned everywhere. Eventually we started to realise that this was far, far deeper than what we originally thought. I think it was a year or two later that we only began to really realise to just how deeply this story went and now, I can't help but think with hindsight: how did we never know?
Q: When did you realise that you wanted to write a book?
I wanted to write a book for a very long time, but I don't think the timing was right for it. I wasn't ready at the time as I was still at a relatively early stage in my career. Then my colleague Adriaan Basson wrote his book and I thought to myself: is there room for another book?
And I came to the conclusion that yes, there was room because this was a completely different story that I wanted to tell. So I went to the publishers in August last year (this following encouragement from Jenny Crwys-Williams who wrote: "book, book, book" on my Facebook wall and calls from government spokespeople who wanted to know more about this book). It was at this point that i decided, "let's do this". It took me about 3 months to write. I started it in August and finished it on New Year's Eve after which it went to the publishers for editing.
Q: Were you inundated with opportunities to interview people who wanted to tell you their side of the story? And if so, how did you decide whose story to include and whose story to say no to?
You know, every time I interviewed someone they'd say to me: "Oh, you should speak to this person, or you should speak to that person." Or they'd give me a phone number and tell me to call this person.
There just came a point where I had to draw a line, otherwise I'd have been interviewing forever. Everyone's got a story to tell and this was and is quite an emotive issue. At the end of the day, I had a very specific idea of what I wanted for the book and ultimately that's what helped me to say no.
Q: It certainly must have taken a lot of trust-building in order to get the likes of Mikey Schultz, Nigel McGurk, Kappie Smith and Glenn Agliotti to sit down and relay their story to you. Do you feel as if they've told you everything that they possibly could have had to tell you?
You know, I think they were surprisingly candid. I think that they certainly told me more than I expected them to. Yet at the same time, I don't know if they told me the truth because it's very possible that in 5 years time they could all turn around and say, 'Well, we were actually using you.'
Which is why, in the book, I don't make a finding and I don't pass judgement and because I can't be sure whether I've been lied to or not. So, while they had to trust me, I had to trust them.
Q: One of the most wonderful aspects of the book is that the multifaceted tones and colloquial voices portrayed throughout it, add an authenticity that many South Africans, will be able to relate to. Did you consciously decide to use this as a format?
Yes. It was important for me to use Mikey's voice as that thread throughout the book and I wanted it to be verbatim because using his voice that way is a true reflection of the way that he lives, speaks and acts. I think that gives the best insight into his psyche.
Q: The characters in your book are also portrayed in a remarkably compelling light, allowing the reader almost to feel a certain sense of empathy toward them. Was it hard to portray them in this manner and still remain impartial?
You know, I wanted to deal with them on a deeper level. I feel that they've been dealt with on a very superficial level in the media and it's for that reason I wanted people to have that empathy. At the same time though, one can't forget what these guys have done. So you can't be too empathetic towards them because these guys have committed horrible crimes - and that's the reality of their situation that I wanted to portray.
It wasn't a challenge to remain impartial because they knew my agenda from the start. They knew I was going to be honest and transparent and they knew they were going to read things that they weren't going to like. At the same time though, I had a rapport with them that was quite unique.
Q: The ruling that the death was considered to be an assisted suicide - this effectively led to the killers being granted indemnity. Were there actual findings that supported the notion that the death was an assisted suicide?
No. Judge Frans Kgomo never made a finding about whether it was an assisted suicide or not. What he did do was he granted indemnity to the three of them; which means he felt that they were telling the truth when they testified.
Their truth was that it was an assisted suicide, so he implied that he believed their version. Also, Glenn Agliotti's defence was that it was an assisted suicide and he was acquitted .So while he never said that he believed it was an assisted suicide, he certainly implied it.
Q: What did you find were the most challenging aspects of writing the book?
You know, when you write for radio, you write very short. And you don't give your opinion. For this book, I had to expand on it and I had to put some of my own opinions in it as the publishers specifically wanted this. So that, for me, was the most difficult aspect of writing this book by far.
Q: What do you hope that people will get out of reading your book?
I think what the book does is show how business, politics and organised crime collided. And if anything, I want people to be aware of what's been happening right under our noses and to be cautious of this. Because, the fact of the matter is that we are seeing this again – Papyrus being another example.
And if anyone reads this book, I want them to walk away and think that we shouldn't allow this to happen again. We shouldn't be seeing people who should be convicted walk free nor should we be seeing the corruption amongst state officials and law enforcement. It just simply shouldn't be allowed.
Our Killing Kebble review will be up shortly. In the meantime, you can buy a copy of the book here.
Have you had a chance to read Killing Kebble yet? If not, why not? And if you have, what did you think of it?
